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Potency is real
Topic Started: Apr 17 2017, 12:01 AM (2,227 Views)
+ Solid Snake
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滅Are you frightened?

Not that I didn't believe in it, but in the English dub of episode 13, while Goku and Beerus were continuing to fight with more power then when they made the shockwaves, Kibito Kaioshin stated that the force was being absorbed into the ones being hit, in place of the shockwaves threatening the universe.

Meaning they were hitting with at least multi galaxy level force and withstood it without the universe being physically effected.

15:08 is where the statement is said.
Edited by Tinny, Apr 17 2017, 03:14 AM.
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Goddess Ultimecia
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Hmm... seems like Funimation is actively attempting to alleviate some of Super Goku's incompetence in order to make him seem heroic. That being said, I don't think the dub counts as good evidence seeing as how it directly contradicts the original japanese. And we already make it a point on this forum to debate using the source material, rather than things that have spawned as a result of it, that including the english dub of old Z.
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+ Solid Snake
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滅Are you frightened?

It doesn't really contradicts anything, just proves the point many others have been telling was the case. Besides, I or anyone else could take what they want as canon and this explanation states there's potency.
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+ QueenTD
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My Dear Melancholy,

How could a dub "prove" a point or be shown as evidence when the original dialog didnt?

Thats like someone changing the narrative of a story you told them.
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+ Solid Snake
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滅Are you frightened?

Not changing a narrative, it's just worded differently but it's following the script more or less.
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Goddess Ultimecia
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The original version insists that Goku and Beerus are literally destroying the universe with their clashes

The other version insists that Goku and Beerus are more or less absorbing all the damage

How are these two in any way following the same script? :huh:

Also, the "I take what I want as canon" approach only works with the original versions of these things. movies, anime, manga etc etc. It doesn't work with differing dubs that directly contradict the original material. I've yet to see you use the old Funi dub of Z in a debate, and there's a reason for that. You're using this because it supports your belief, and getting rid of the original dub because it contradicts it.
Edited by Goddess Ultimecia, Apr 17 2017, 02:53 PM.
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+ Solid Snake
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滅Are you frightened?

Wrong, both versions are stated that they're destroying the universe, but the dub sheds more light on what's going on regarding the fight post the shockwaves.

That's mainly because the original dub of Z was clearly wrong, Kai and Super English dub try to stay as close to source material as possible. Certain wordings and such doesn't mean it can't be used in place of Japanese dub. The original doesn't goes against what I said, its been the truth all along, just has been omitted.
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Solid Snake
 
Wrong, both versions are stated that they're destroying the universe, but the dub sheds more light on what's going on regarding the fight post the shockwaves.

That's mainly because the original dub of Z was clearly wrong, Kai and Super English dub try to stay as close to source material as possible. Certain wordings and such doesn't mean it can't be used in place of Japanese dub. The original doesn't goes against what I said, its been the truth all along, just has been omitted.


That still doesn't rid of the fact that the English Dub added information that is not present in the original dub. Just because the english dub is more accurate to source material than last time around does not now make it more accurate than the original dub. The general rule of thumb around here is that evidence must come from the source material. In Super's case, this would either 1.) be from the japanese dub or 2.) From the manga. Although the manga seems to be set in its own continuity.

Edit: As far as I'm concerned, this goes in the bin where Raditz is faster than light due to dub statement.
Edited by Goddess Ultimecia, Apr 17 2017, 07:54 PM.
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+ Solid Snake
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滅Are you frightened?

The same could be said for Diaz but some people still takes their word if it doesn't contradict or clash against what's established already. As far as I'm concerned, ANY form of the show (Super) takes precedence over statements, guides, etc. Therefore, if I have new information that isn't stated as of yet and nothing goes against it, its free game to use. Split durability can't exist now due to this (even though it never did to begin with).

Your edit- I wouldn't rule it out, Piccolo's blast is at least light speed level during the beginning of Z.
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Alright man, whatever lol. This is a weird hill for you to put your flag but go ahead.

Edit: Question though, you said you accept the English Dub as your own subjective canon, what happens if, for example, someone doesn't accept it as their's? Your "evidence" is nullified no?
Edited by Goddess Ultimecia, Apr 18 2017, 06:46 PM.
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+ Ssj3vegito96
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To be fair let's say the original Japanese dbz dub was inaccurate to what the manga(toriyama's ideas) was trying to get across and the English dub of dbz Kai was more accurate to it. You're not going to use the Japanese dub you're going to use the English.

I know that's a little different because they're kind of separate series but if you can prove that the English dub of super is more accurate to the ideas the writers intended then the English dub is just as good if not better evidence than the Japanese

I think that's what solid snake is trying to say

Plus, split durability became a little shakey in the super anime during the baseball episode when goku controlled the force of the baseball by making it go really slow. I know it's a gag but... Some people don't mind using gag feats sometimes
Edited by Ssj3vegito96, Apr 18 2017, 06:56 PM.
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Tinny
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Ssj3vegito96
Apr 18 2017, 06:54 PM
To be fair let's say the original Japanese dbz dub was inaccurate to what the manga(toriyama's ideas) was trying to get across and the English dub of dbz Kai was more accurate to it. You're not going to use the Japanese dub you're going to use the English.

I know that's a little different because they're kind of separate series but if you can prove that the English dub of super is more accurate to the ideas the writers intended then the English dub is just as good if not better evidence than the Japanese

I think that's what solid snake is trying to say
He's not far as I can tell, the manga as I recall doesn't have that either, and more to the point, the anime is (supposed) to either take precedence, or be a separate entity from the manga. While someone can certainly pick and choose their canon, what Solid Snake is doing is basically saying the Spanish dub (iirc it had "healing wave" instead of kamehameha) can prove, disprove, or add to something said in (pick whichever one you like the most) Kai, the original, or the manga, and this isn't honestly that new an idea from him either, he's constantly held the anime above the manga at multiple points as a source of information.

Ultimately the issue here is that he's using a statement in a dub, that at no point has been suggested by any translations of the original materials, and holding it's validity higher than others. While that's fine if you're writing fanfiction or simply on your own, when talking with a group of people, especially if they tend to value value where the information comes from rather than having a laissez-faire attitude to information, it's a bit weird to hold an english dub which changes names and alters events (such as adding in them absorbing the damage), above the original Japanese version. In terms of lore anyway, quality wise that probably would help greatly in saving the arc for me.
Edited by Tinny, Apr 18 2017, 07:04 PM.
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SSJ3Vegito
 
To be fair let's say the original Japanese dbz dub was inaccurate to what the manga(toriyama's ideas) was trying to get across and the English dub of dbz Kai was more accurate to it. You're not going to use the Japanese dub you're going to use the English.


Fair enough

SSJ3Vegito
 
I know that's a little different because they're kind of separate series but if you can prove that the English dub of super is more accurate to the ideas the writers intended then the English dub is just as good if not better evidence than the Japanese


That's the issue with this I think, because the Super anime from the japanese dub is what comes first, it is the source material as far as I'm aware of. That said, you could make an argument about the english dub being more accurate since it outright states that potency is a thing, however, that requires you to go in thinking it exists in the first place. I've seen it argued back and forth on this forum for years now.

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@tinny I wasn't talking about DBS manga. I should've just said writers in general. If the English dub gets a point across better... Is there a problem with using it?

@goddess So why do people use books like the daizenshuu as evidence of something even if it makes something up or contradicts something?
Edited by Ssj3vegito96, Apr 18 2017, 07:03 PM.
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I wasn't talking about DBS manga. I should've just said writers in general. If the English dub gets a point across better... Is there a problem with using it?

On your own certainly not, but keep in mind we're in the dragon ball fandom and we have people arguing over the meaning of certain turns of phrases in interviews about the author themselves. We have no idea what they mean, and what they are trying to get across is a discussion with as many if not more answers than discussions about the source material alone. In this case... We really can't use it with any degree of certainty, at least none that's well deserved.

No one even agrees on what the writers mean beyond the broadest strokes of the universe being in danger, so I find using the author to tell which dub is more accurate a bit difficult, especially since it's going through a filter of translator and someone localizing it to American shores.
Edited by Tinny, Apr 18 2017, 07:08 PM.
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